Lime & Violet #12: Kiltworms & Beer
Finally done with the editing for this mammoth episode, Miss Violet would like to take a moment to apologize for the sound quality in part of this episode. Apparently, tiny little gremlins have taken over her computer and have decided to make her sound editing program crash at random. She thinks that perhaps Microsoft is behind it.
That said, this episode is all about socks, platonic boyfriends, not-so-platonic kiltboys, and how Lime and Violet both learned to never leave a beer unattended, even when they are in your hand at the time.
At right around 40 minutes, there is a very serious topic broached, complete with the interviews that decided to crash Violet's
As always, our show notes are at http://limenviolet.blogspot.com and the faboo message boards are at http://limenviolet.com/mb.
Click here to listen, or subscribe via iTunes!
posted by Miss Violet @ 1:27 AM
41 Comments:
whoppeee!
Thank you for another fabulous podcast!
The stuff about price fixing was fascinating, I'll definately be checking up on the manufacturers I buy from in the future.
And squeee - you played my song! :D
This was the ONE time I wish my drive to work was longer. Arg I only got through the yarn p0rn and then had to go to work :( I'll certainly be listening on my drive home, though! Too bad I'm going out to lunch with a coworker.
lisayoudATgmailDOTcom
pssst! audio file? i gots a wee window of opportunity and would love to get it all done while my brain is still engaged.
:-)
Brilliant expose of the price fixing. I might just keep my "serious hat" on all day. Nice work!
Microsoft is definitely behind it.
must . . . have. . . pyrex. . . needles!
jason mask, eh? ooooooo i'm tempted
Yippee!!! I'm downloading now, I actually have time to listen today :)
Hey Ladies! Thanks for a very thought-provoking episode today! One of my close friends owns a yarn shop, and I'm looking forward to picking her brain on the subject.
"Keystone Pricing" is an strange thing, and it isn't just happening in the yarn industry. It's rampant in other industries too. I know my husband saw it first hand when he worked at a high-end audio store about 9 years ago. Also, if you've ever looked at Ashford spinning wheels and their other products, it's happening there too. It's also my understanding that Disney does it when their DVDs are first released.
This is an interesting topic, and I'll be following it closely.
Thanks for another great episode!
PS: Happy belated birthday Lime!!! I'll go lick some yarn in your honor. :)
hey, i liked that song!
wow, that was a very interesting piece. is anyone accumulating a list, yet?
and milwaukee's best is not beer. it's the dregs. (shudder) and i don't drink beer
P.S. Can Bill come back? He was great!
Damn it... I can't listen until I get home, I've got the crawley's and I'm starting to convulse in withdrawl of my L&V.
GRRRRR
Can't wait to hear about price fixing... I could tell you about it regarding the flooring industry but I'd probably get fired.
I love the bandicoot thing!
Roving? Link to soft as buttah roving!?
While I was listening to the podcast about price fixing, it occurred to me that it's kinda like the DRM (Digital Rights Management) stuff that's out there now. Like when you buy a CD, but you can't rip it to your computer or something, or you (legally) download a movie or TiVo a movie, and your right to view it expires after a certain time. We're coming to have less and less control over what we actually buy and own, and that's A Very Bad Thing, IMHO.
Great show. I giggled my way through it (apart from the serious bit) with imaginary gin in my hand. I had no idea about the price fixing thing. Something to bear in mind for future purchases.
And the idea of kiltworms is even more amusing. I made my DH wear a kilt when we got married!
Thank you so much for your piece. I know on the SKC someone had complained Anonymously about Sarah's prices. It really makes you think about who you are buying from. I can't afforde the Tilli regardless, but my sense of right and wrong/moral outrage won't let me buy from the other companies mentioned either. I will have to stop drooling over Lorna Laces now.
Hey girls, absolutely fabulous show!
I am also very shocked and annoyed by this price-gouging and good on you for having the balls (so to speak :P) to expose it.
I hope a list starts up somewhere, I will never buy again from anyone who engages in this "keystone pricing" practice as soon as I know who they are.
Much love and keep up the great work!
hey that phone audio sounded really good with the guy.
So, like you said, there is a certain amount of a "class" issue at hand.
Companies that use the keystone concept aren't looking out for the little guys... they may be somewhat, but, primarily they want to create a particular high-end market for their product. They want it to be perceived as "nice" or "high-end" or what have you.
It's despicable.
There are two sides to that pricing issue. I think you missed some of it...
There is also something morally wrong with internet or other stores undercutting prices.
Actually, we didn't miss that part. Because it's NOT morally wrong for one company to lower overhead and pass savings on to the customer in order to attract more sales. That's how a free market economy -works-. The competition drives stores to come up with ways to save on prices and manufacturers to come up with better products.
Perhaps you should check out the usdoj.gov's site on antitrust to get a better idea of how these fixed prices affect the entire economy.
And honestly, when it comes down to it, it should be up to the retailer what his/her prices are, anyway. The manufacturer telling a private entity (like a yarn store) what they HAVE to earn isn't even remotely free, nor is it remotely fair.
So before you anonymously leave us more comments that show you weren't listening to the piece, please do some research. I understand that LYSs are concerned that the internet will damage their profits, but the fact is that the statistics don't support that at all, and people still go to the yarn stores who keep costs reasonable while providing value that the internet simply can't -- and if retailers would realize that and focus on it, the manufacturers couldn't make this an issue, when the REAL issue here is that the more "exclusive" (read: expensive) their yarns are, the more they can make...which is the bottom line in more ways than one.
Dear Miss Lime and Miss Violet,
I’ve just begun listening to your podcast, and I wonder if perhaps you could clear something up for me. My understanding is that your podcast is available for free, but every time I listen, my bank balance dips lower.
First it was Lisa Souza, to the tune of $150, and then after you referenced Traci Bunkers’ sock pattern, I suddenly found myself the proud owner of not one sock kit, not two, but THREE sock kits. It makes me dizzy when this happens.
I know you will try to tell me that I’m responsible for my own yarn addiction, but I really feel that you must be doing something (subliminals?) that forces me to make purchases at these sites when my only intention is to get a visual of what you’re talking about during the show. Could you please stop, or at least give a warning when you’re going to be doing this so that I can avoid making further obscene purchases (3 sock kits? Really? One wasn’t enough?)? Maybe you before you begin discussing yarns or designers you could just announce an estimate of how much one should expect to spend when visiting them online, and then I’ll know if I can afford to listen to a particular segment.
Thanks for your attention to this matter,
Laura Y.
http://www.afrayedknotknits.com
Happy Birthday Lime!!!
Nice to meet you Bill.
As always great episode, I really liked the segment about the anti-trust laws.
I did listen and you missed my point. I am not concerned about LYS losing sales at all. I don't even care about that, and I can post anonymously-back to a free world, correct? What I am concerned about, and many in business are concerned about, are some of the knitting business owners whether they be internet or LYS who have zero business skills, who give away their products. Whether it be those yarns or handpainted yarn, just to get sales......they undercut and undercharge simply to get sales. That is wrong, sorry.. And it is also just plain stupid...
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
Yet again, another absolutely great episode.
My co-workers thought me insane today. When I heard you mention that it was also my birthday I started dancing around my station saying, "Oh My God! They Wished Me A Happy Birthday In Their Podcast! How Cool is that, and how cool are they for doing it." Actually I guess I should say that they always thought I was/am insane! lol Thanks for the wishes. It felt like my birthday all over again.
Thanks for informative piece on price fixing also.
Keep up the great work ladies. Take a stand, if you feel passionate about something. And feel free to do what you feel you must.
S
Anonymous says that it is "wrong" for yarn purveyors to "give" away yarn just to make a sale. She labels these yarn shop owners as having no business skills.
This is a generalization that is, ironically, completely opposite in the case of Sarah's yarns, as Sarah is an accountant and is able to offer yarn at lower prices because of her excellent business skills.
What I see all the time is yarn shop owners with no business skills going under because they order crappy overpriced yarn, or even fabulous overpriced yarn that no one can afford, and then mark up the prices even higher than suggested retail because they're not selling enough and they realize they're going under.
I think what needs to happen is for yarn shops to stop being so brand-dependant. Wool is wool, alpaca is alpaca, there's no need to pay a marketing guy to slap a tag on, unless it's online and you can't touch the stuff to see whether it's what you want. That's really the only advantage of buying a brand, is that you know in advance pretty much exactly what it's going to be like... so we as consumers have no reason to buy branded yarn anywhere but online, at the cheapest place possible. There's nothing wrong with that.
The one thing a LYS can offer that no online shop can is actual contact with yarn, so brands don't matter as much. If you touch it and see the color and it's the right gauge then who cares what brand it is?
It makes knitting more of a creative process, rather than just buying the yarn for the prescribed pattern. All the people dyeing and spinning are an indication that knitters are starting to go that direction anyway, and I hope it continues. I think when we buy un-branded yarn and spin our own hanks, it sends the message that yarn needs to come down in price, because we aren't willing to pay extra just for some stupid brand tag.
Violet -- Thank you SO much for doing such an exceptional job reporting the price-fixing issue that is so rampant amongst the yarn industry. You certainly did your homework and it shows in your report.
I'd also like to say that I own both a brick and mortar yarn shop and an online yarn shop and the two are as different as night and day and therefore really can't be compared. As Violet said, brick & mortar yarn shops offer services that no online yarn shop can even come close to offering. The way I see it, it's sort of like trying to buy groceries online. Sure, there ARE online grocery stores, but most people prefer to "see, feel, and smell" their food before they buy it and most also prefer to take it home with them that day. I mean, if I run out of coffee, do you think I'm going to buy it online and wait a week to recieve it (let alone pay $5.00 for shipping) when I can run into the grocery store and grab it now (without shipping fees)? The exact same principal applies with buying yarn. There is a niche for both markets, LYS's as well as online shops, and neither should consider the other a threat. You'd think the folks working at the large manufacturers (as well as the retailers who are complaining about their online "competition") would be smart enough to recognize this as well, but who knows.
The issue of "overhead" is another interesting point. For companies who have online yarn shops only (without also running a brick & mortar yarn shop), there certainly is MUCH more overhead than most people realize. There is still office-space to lease, utilities to pay, employees to hire, computers to buy, web hosting and online shopping cart fees, accounting and shipping software, etc. So in actuality, the overhead is quite comparable, therefore the theory that online yarn shops can afford to profit less than brick & mortar yarn shops is not at all accurate or fair. Basically, as Sarah said, it boils down to greed on both the part of the retailer and on the part of the manufacturer (who for some reason thinks they'll make more money by keeping prices inflated), and ends up hurting the customer. This should (as Violet mentioned) infuriate the knitting community.
Yarn manufacturers who insist yarn retailers charge "keystone" pricing are removing the freedom of choice from both the yarn retailer and the knitting customer. For instance, let's say I'm a consumer shopping for yarn and there are two yarn shops (of equal quality and service) within 20 minutes from my home. One yarn shop charges $25 for a skein of Tilli Tomas yarn, and the other charges the keystone price of $40 per skein. If I (for whatever reason) support the yarn manufacturer's (supposed) point of view that requiring retail keystone pricing "levels the playing field and protects all LYS's, then I would choose to drive to the store that prefers to charge the keystone price of $40. However if I don't agree with the keystone pricing policy, I feel I should be able to buy it from the retailer who is willing to pocket less and save me money. It's about choice, and that's what America is all about (unless it endangers someone else of course). If this concept is hard to grasp, think about it in terms of gasoline or groceries. I don't know about everybody else, but I'm going to choose to fill up at the gas station that's selling their gas for the cheapest, and am thankful that I have options. Same thing in the grocery store, clothing stores, etc. If I can buy the same pair of jeans for $5.00 less, I'm going to do it, and if there's anybody reading this who would pay $5.00 more, I'd like to know why.
As Violet said, once the yarn manufacturer sells their yarn to a retailer, they no longer own it. Period. And if a yarn manufacturer "thinks" that their retailers should charge a certain amount for their product, then the yarn manufacturers should retail it themselves. Yarn manufacturers should do just that -- manufacture yarn, and let the retailers sell it. Whoever decided the yarn manufacturers should do anything more than manufacture yarn (such as regulate the yarn industry) must have slept their way through high school economics, in particular the Sherman Anti-Trust laws.
Rest assured, there WILL be a list compiled with consumer friendly companies vs those companies who practice the illegal policy of keystone pricing. Each manufacturer will be contacted and asked (point blank) which list they prefer to be categorized under so that the lists are accurate and a reliable resource to the knitting community. Also included on the list will be yarn companies (such as Tilli Tomas) who SAY they don't follow keystone pricing policies and yet refuse to sell (or return phone calls) to the shops who discount. Words mean nothing unless they are supported by actions.
I would like to encourage ALL knitters to stand up for your beliefs and purchase consumer-friendly yarns ONLY until the unethical yarn manufacturers change their keystone pricing policies. Heaven knows there are MANY beautiful (consumer-friendly) yarns out there to knit with, and eventually the other companies will feel the effect and change their ways. Personally, I am so glad to see the Lorna's Laces and Tilli Tomas's of this world exposed for what they truly are, and that they certainly are NOT interested in their customer. I also wonder if the trend we're seeing with so many other wonderful independent hand dyers out there is because of those ridiculous Lorna's Laces' keystone prices. Lorna's Laces' own greed essentially gave birth to their own competition via indepenent yarn dyers. The remaining unethical yarn manufacturers should take heed.
MSRP = Manufacture SUGGESTED Retail Price, does it not???
When did MSRP become Manufactured DICTATED Retail Price???
Hm, maybe the yarn manufacturers assumed knitters wouldn't figure that one out. That in itself makes me mad enough to boycott them!
Interesting show and comments.. I didn't know that certain manufacturers were dictating prices. Although recently I did hear that about Addi knitting needles. That you must agree to sell at a certain price if you buy from them. I am glad that more people are seeking out alternatives including those from the little people, the artisans out there. One thing I LOVE about this whole industry is that it hasn't become all mainstream chains and brand names and I hope it never does!! I am on a kick this year to go to all indie restaurants too and to avoid chains in general for some of these same reasons
My only problem with some of the undercutters (not talking about name brands) is that some artisans don't charge what they are worth and anyone who dyes or spins, knows what hard work it is.. this is a different topic though, sorry!
Where else would you hear about kiltworms and price fixing in the same podcast - L&V of course! You guys really did your research - the segment on price fixing was fascinating and eye opening - it's something that you wouldn't expect to see (oh, wait a moment - we are a business-driven society!) Great podcast. I for one wouldn't mind similar investigative segments esp as they relate to yarn.
I haven't read all the comments, but how about starting an online petition to send to the price gouging manufacturers? We are a mighty bunch! I for one won't be purchasing yarn from a manufacturer who uses keystone pricing.
If a shop is giving away yarn to "just get sales", they won't be around very long. It's the way of business -- it either makes money, or it doesn't, and if it's making money, then a) they're not giving it away, and b) they're doing what a business's purpose is -- making money.
There will ALWAYS be someone who will charge less. NO matter WHAT it is we're talking about. It's the way of business. Luckily, they weed themselves out of existence if they don't watch the bottom line.
However, it's just NOT for the manufacturers to decide when/how fast that will happen. The problem that manufacturers have with keystone (which they blame on trying to "level the playing field for the local stores") is that their egos won't let them be seen as anything less than exclusive and luxury and in high demand.
It's just bad business. And kind of illegal, too, if one wants to get down to brass tacks.
Honestly, the issue of "hurting the local yarn store" should really be a non-issue. The experience of online shopping vs. LYS shopping is like comparing apples to oranges.
The "luxury yarn" manufacturers bring this into the equation so we can all sit around arguing about it while they quietly go off to giggle about how much money they're making by turning their yarns into a) something everyone's talking about, even if it's negative, and b) a commodity by only selling to people who will agree to charge a premium for them, which is CREATING AN ARTIFICIAL VALUE for them.
So until the keystone pricing structure is demolished as mandate rather than a choice of every store owner, there's no way to fight the monumental greed we're seeing on the part of the manufacturer. The owners will be pitted against the online retailers by the manufacturers, and will gladly sign the keystone agreements because they think it "protects them" against a threat that really doesn't exist.
People are manipulated by their fears, and if a rep says that this protects them from those online sharks who are "giving away" the product, most store owners (who were probably knitters moreso than businesspeople,and thus, are a little out of their element anyway, WHICH is probably why we see so many of them go under -- you can love something madly, but if you make a business out of it, you're now in the business of making money to keep it afloat, and that's a whole new animal from just loving knitting.) are scared to DEATH and will be more than happy to sign away rights in order to protect themselves. After all, the rep knows more about this business than they do, right? Right!?
I really think this keystone issue is about a whole lot more than what the manufacturers are telling us about "leveling the playing field" that is, by all rights, already levelled. It's about keeping control over something they've ALREADY SOLD in order to create that artificial value increase.
So yes, anonymous 1 -- it is a shame when people sell things below cost to make more sales. But not because of how much it hurts the other retailers -- but because that's not, by definition, a business anymore. It's knitting charity, and will be dead soon unless they change their ways.
And watching something in death throes is always kind of sad.
The keystone issue is just fascinating to me. It raises all kinds of issues: are keystone agreements legal? are they moral (I think most of your listeners say NO)? are the companies using keystone agreements or are they forcing compliance by threatening not to sell, or both? should the knitting community be immune from things like this? what implications does all of this have for how much power knitters have? is a boycott the right way to fight this?
There is more than one way to look at this problem and more than one side to the story. Free market principles, anti-trust, free culture - these are just some of the bigger issues involved.
I don't have any answers. I do hope, though, that the discussion will continue with civility. Bashing the LYS or yarn company or knitters who don't share our opinions gets us nowhere.
Hi Knittah! In response to your comment, I'd like to address some of your questions, etc.
1) Fact -- keystone pricing is NOT legal.
2) Opinion -- keystone pricing is not moral.
3) Fact -- Yarn manufacturers ARE using keystone pricing and ARE forcing compliance by threatening not to sell. So the answer to your question is "both".
4) Opinion -- Yarn retailers should be (and are) angry that they are not able to determine how much money they pocket, and yarn buyers should be outraged that the yarn companies (that THEY keep in business) think of the yarn buyers LAST, which in turn will end up causing the yarn companies to go out of business NOT keep them in business. No one should be immune from the truth.
5) Opinion -- Keystone pricing takes "shopping/saving" power away from the knitter, and forces the knitter to pay an artificially inflated price for a product that likely isn't worth what they're asked to pay (otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't worry about establishing keystone pricing policies to begin with). ANY time price-fixing is practiced within an industry, consumers lose power. This just MIGHT be why it's illegal.
6) Fact - Boycotting is a GREAT (and very effective) way to get the message to yarn manufacturers that knitters don't appreciate their business practices.
7) Opinion -- There is more than one way of looking at anything in life (usually a right way and a wrong way). There were two ways of looking at slavery too -- the right way which said that "all men are created equal" and the wrong way which argued that it benefited the southern slave-owners, etc. To me, the issue at hand seems pretty straight forward. It's illegal and therefore should be stopped. Yes, there are other ways "around" the problem other than boycotting (spinning and dyeing your own yarn or purchasing more often from those who do, for example) but how realistic is this and how effective will it be if we continue to support the yarn companies who are "screwing" their consumers (both the retailers and the end-consumers) if we allow ourselves to purchase their yarns?
7) Opinion -- I have yet to see any bashing of anybody so far on any of the boards. Yes there is a lively debate going on and many people are (rightly) upset about what they're seeing, but I've not seen any mud-slinging or name-calling. I've seen truth, I've seen denial, I've seen shock and I've seen knitters taking a stand and committing to buy only from "ethical" yarn companies, and if a yarn company's name is mentioned in the same sentence as such terms as "unethical", "price-fixing" or "illegal" than perhaps that yarn company should re-examine their business policies if they feel "bashed".
See now, what we DO need to keep in mind, luv2knit, is this:
Our boycott, and any other action we take, needs to be damned sure not to have collateral damage.
By that, I mean that there has to be a way to do this so that we don't end up hurting the local bricks-and-mortar stores, who have ALREADY purchased the stock that's sitting on their shelves, and who would be out that wholesale cost if we all just stopped buying.
The reason I say this is that if there was just a boycott of the yarns in question, and it DID end up hurting the lys's of the country, the manufacturers would be the FIRST ones going to other stores and pointing out that THEY were trying to HELP the bricks-and-mortar stores, and NOW look what's happening!? Look at the way they're losing money! -- it'd end up instilling more fear among LYSs than getting them as an ally in this, which is what we need.
If we can get the RETAILERS to refuse to sell those yarns, and STOP ORDERING THEM....THEN we're going to see change. Combine that with a letter-writing campaign about how you're not going to purchase any of their yarns, and we've got a shot at making a change. Let them know why we're not buying, then, once your LYS has not reordered, don't buy.
The key here is going to be the retailers. They need to stop making these agreements, both stated (contractual) and unstated (complicit). They can still CHARGE keystone pricing, of COURSE, since that's what some stores NEED TO DO to stay in business. But the agreements need to GO. Since the manufacturer ALREADY HAS ITS MONEY by the time those skeins are in your LYS, it's none of the manufacturers' business what the retailer charges.
We need to ENCOURAGE our LYS owners to TAKE BACK THEIR OWN POWER OVER THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
I'm open to suggestions HOW that can occur, too.
Good point. A couple of suggestions then. First, the yarn retailers could "clearance" all the "unethical yarns" in their shop to make back what they've put in the yarn. With what they make from the "clearance" yarns, they then can re-purchase consumer-friendly yarns. This really wouldn't take too terribly long, if the retailers are willing to make the temporary sacrifice and shows their customers that they CARE about them enough to stand up against the yarn manufacturers. Another option is that most yarn manufacturers will allow their retailers to return unopened bags of yarn and will credit their accounts (frequently without a re-stocking fee).
My only concern about this strategy however, is that (it would seem) for some reason MANY retailers still believe that this price-fixing in some way protects them, and they are unlikely to stand up against any of the yarn manufacturers. Maybe the answer would be for the customers to approach their LYS's and to tell them how they feel about the "keystone pricing" issues and ask the LYS if and how they plan to do anything about it. If the LYS cares, then they will move out the "unethical yarns" to make way for the "consumer-friendly" yarns. If the LYS does not do this, then that would let the customer know that they will have to take matters into their own hands and boycott those yarns even if it "hurts" the LYS.
The VERY first thing that needs to happen however, is that there needs to be a record (or list) of where each yarn manufacturer stands regarding keystone pricing. Time is of the essence here (in my opinion) and we need to strike the iron while it's hot.
You both rock, plain and simple. It's great to hear you two banter and laugh together. Happy Birthday, Miss Lime!!
(Yarn porn... Claudia's Handpaints. I just found some at the new LYS location and had myself a good "sqeee" right there in the store. They understood.)
This is a very interesting issue. I'm so glad that you brought it to my attention.
I will definitely chose yarn from companies who are not practicing keystone pricing.
That is rediculous. I can't believe stores are buying this yarn (which makes it their property) and then still letting someone tell them how much to sell it for.
I agree, there has been no bashing that I have seen on the Lime and Violet mb. I am wary though, because I have seen things like this devolve into bashing in other contexts. Just a cautionary comment, that's all.
Regarding the companies using keystone pricing agreements, I agree that a list needs to be compiled ASAP. However, again - a caution, that the list needs to be based on evidence, not rumors. Tilli Tomas uses keystone, according to Sarah's blog. We need the same level of evidence (or better) before we start throwing names around or boycotting.
Again, I am not suggesting anyone here has done this. Just a caution going forward.
I think it's important to get all the information on these yarn companies in one place, so I've started a blog so that people can go to one place and see a list of consumer-unfriendly yarn companies.
http://keystoneyarns.blogspot.com/
I'm not interested in falsely accusing people, so I'm asking that if people have written evidence of keystone pricing practices, such as sales agreements stipulating certain prices, that they e-mail them to me so I can post them to the blog.
I'm open to other input on this as well. Thanks!
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